Who Killed The Electric Car
#11
12-30-2006, 12:19 PM
Re: Who Killed The Electric Car
Generally speaking, subjects like this raise questions that, what you call war-mongering people, take to heart and get offended...just in the same token that there are many subjects that "liberals" get offended about.
As I have said before, this is a subject that is extremely serious in consequence...and it know's no boundaries such as left/right, conservative, liberal.....
A conservative person will die of lung cancer just as quickly as a liberal...so I don't see why you even bring in this tactic of name-labeling.
#12
12-30-2006, 12:27 PM
Re: Who Killed The Electric Car
Interesting topic but if you don't mind, I need to first address a couple of points in your post that are (whether intentional or unintentional) strongly biased. It's unfair to characterize folks on the 'right' as abusers of the environment. Likewise, it's also unfair to group those that only care about the environment as liberals.
It's reallly a pet peive of mine on this forum that so many rush to equate all that's wrong with our world with GW (i.e., the leader of the "right-wingers"). Republicans and Democrats have been "asleep at the wheel" in this issue for decades. They've all been bought by big oil and American auto. They've all had their time in office, all had control of the House and Senate at one time or another, and all failed. So please, do not make this a political 'right vs. left' issue. The blame and corruption are equal, and goes back a lot farther than GW's tenure in office.
Interesting thing is that it's not just in the hands of 20-30 people. It's in the hands of ~300 million American citizens. Nothing speaks louder in this country than were we spend our money. Nothing speaks louder than were we place our vote. I don't know that we need more politicians to care - we need more people to care. Politicians will simply reflect what the majority of their voters care about.
I do think people would care..but not enough know how good or bad things are to do so...and politicians have no incentive to help them.
#13
12-30-2006, 12:35 PM
Re: Who Killed The Electric Car
Sorry but there is a lot of stuff far, far away from hybrid electrics. But a couple of points:
But today, there are over 500,000 hybrids in use world wide. The electric cars in contrast are notable by their absence. However, there is one available on Ebay:
Item number: 300062899957
"FOR SALE
Electric Vehicle
manufacturing business"
They were fine, lead-acid batteries in the first generation.
Yet they can't reach dealerships or market.
But today, there are over 500,000 hybrids in use world wide. The electric cars in contrast are notable by their absence. However, there is one available on Ebay:
Item number: 300062899957
"FOR SALE
Electric Vehicle
manufacturing business"
They were fine, lead-acid batteries in the first generation.
Yet they can't reach dealerships or market.
Let's put it this way....if tomorrow the automakers and oil firms want to make Hybrids look bad, they will. And they'll do it so quickly that our heads will spin...battery pollution, batteries causing cancer, electricution, etc etc etc....whatever they can throw at it they will and they'll win. You know better, I know better...and so do 500,000 other consumers I guess. But they'll clean em up and take em away before you can say HCH.
. . .
Sorry but this is the poster child for what Solzhinitsyn warned against. The claim that only "20-30 people" are responsible is the heart and soul, the justification for every murderous tyrant who if they could just get rid of the evil people, would make the earth a paradise. Unfortunately, it never stops and that is what Solzhinitsyn was warning about. Of course, by now you'll add me to your list . . . and their names are?
Mine is:
Bob Wilson
Sorry but this is the poster child for what Solzhinitsyn warned against. The claim that only "20-30 people" are responsible is the heart and soul, the justification for every murderous tyrant who if they could just get rid of the evil people, would make the earth a paradise. Unfortunately, it never stops and that is what Solzhinitsyn was warning about. Of course, by now you'll add me to your list . . . and their names are?
Mine is:
Bob Wilson
Where people fail themselves is when it comes to making choices to change. There's huge natural resistance to do so. Psychological studies have been done across the board on how mass populations think, deal with things, act, etc....anyone who believes that has not been done should be labeled naive at best.
So on top of resistance is cohersion and directing....things that Solzhinitsyn probably experienced at its infancy.
Last edited by Armand; 12-30-2006 at 12:46 PM.
#14
12-30-2006, 04:29 PM
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Join Date: Jan 2006
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Re: Who Killed The Electric Car
Originally Posted by worthywads 7/22/06
Well I finally saw the movie today. Thought it would eventually make it to Boulder but apparently not. Had to drive to a rundown theatre on the south side of Denver metro. Who killed the advertising budget and distribution? Had to drive 90 miles round trip but got a few errands done along the way. Managed to squeeze out 32.8 mpg on the Tacoma even with some 75mph travel and the wife demanding A/C. I'm confident that a good long trip at 65 can yield 35+.
There was one suspect that wasn't address by the movie but was brought up by the young woman that was originally part of the EV1 project.
Would GM have continued with the EV project if CARB had not passed the original mandate of 10% by 2003. So often government agencies think that just passing some regulation means they get the result they desire. GM hasn't ever taken kindly to government telling the auto industry what to do unless they see an advantage. Expecting GM to lead the way with mandates was a bad strategy, GM was working on the EV1 long before California got pushy.
The movie did a good job of highlighting how impractical the fuel cell cars may be, but there are similar shortcomings with 100% EVs. My guess is that an EV1 if available would be an additional vehicle for most of those that get one. Plug-in hybrids seemed to be the solution given at the end of the movie, and IMO that would provide the vehicle that could replace my current vehicle. Make it a hybrid diesel plug-in Tacoma please. Resources aren't saved if there are tens of millions of EVs that require an additional garage space. I wondered what vehicle normally takes up the other space in Peter Horton's suspiciously large empty garage, certainly something more spacious than the EV1.
Glad to see the elderly battery inventing couple seems to be doing well, I wish I used enough electricity to take advantage of their solar panels, but with an average monthly electric charge of less than $40 the math hasn't worked yet.
I give it a thumbs up.
There was one suspect that wasn't address by the movie but was brought up by the young woman that was originally part of the EV1 project.
Would GM have continued with the EV project if CARB had not passed the original mandate of 10% by 2003. So often government agencies think that just passing some regulation means they get the result they desire. GM hasn't ever taken kindly to government telling the auto industry what to do unless they see an advantage. Expecting GM to lead the way with mandates was a bad strategy, GM was working on the EV1 long before California got pushy.
The movie did a good job of highlighting how impractical the fuel cell cars may be, but there are similar shortcomings with 100% EVs. My guess is that an EV1 if available would be an additional vehicle for most of those that get one. Plug-in hybrids seemed to be the solution given at the end of the movie, and IMO that would provide the vehicle that could replace my current vehicle. Make it a hybrid diesel plug-in Tacoma please. Resources aren't saved if there are tens of millions of EVs that require an additional garage space. I wondered what vehicle normally takes up the other space in Peter Horton's suspiciously large empty garage, certainly something more spacious than the EV1.
Glad to see the elderly battery inventing couple seems to be doing well, I wish I used enough electricity to take advantage of their solar panels, but with an average monthly electric charge of less than $40 the math hasn't worked yet.
I give it a thumbs up.
#15
12-30-2006, 05:16 PM
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Re: Who Killed The Electric Car
By the way you're not related to Armand Hammer of Occidental Petroleum fame?
Since this thread does involve conspiracies I'd like to bring up Armand Hammer's dealings with Al Gore, Junior and Senior. This is clearly not a Republican monopoly, the Democrats have oil all over themselves include Al.
http://www.theforbiddenknowledge.com...and_hammer.htm
Originally Posted by From above site
Hammer recognized the utility of buying politicians, and here Mr. Epstein understates one of his juicier stories: how the impecunious Senator Albert Gore Sr. got the wealth to enable him to live in splendor in Washington's Fairfax Hotel and to send son, Al Jr., now the vice president, to the pricey St. Albans school.
In 1950, Hammer made Mr. Gore "a partner in a cattle-breeding business, from which the Senator made a substantial profit." Thereafter, Gore was Hammer's designated door-opener in official Washington. When Mr. Gore retired, Hammer made him president of Occidental's coal division, where he "earned more than $500,000 a year."
Son Al next put the family's Senate seat at Hammer's service. At the 1981 inauguration of Ronald Reagan, Junior managed for Hammer to be seated in a section reserved for senators. Hammer lurked in the doorway, hoping to glad-hand the president, but Mr. Reagan brushed by him without a glance, and with reason. Years earlier, Alexandre de Marenches, the head of French intelligence, had warned him that Hammer was a Soviet "agent of influence."
In 1950, Hammer made Mr. Gore "a partner in a cattle-breeding business, from which the Senator made a substantial profit." Thereafter, Gore was Hammer's designated door-opener in official Washington. When Mr. Gore retired, Hammer made him president of Occidental's coal division, where he "earned more than $500,000 a year."
Son Al next put the family's Senate seat at Hammer's service. At the 1981 inauguration of Ronald Reagan, Junior managed for Hammer to be seated in a section reserved for senators. Hammer lurked in the doorway, hoping to glad-hand the president, but Mr. Reagan brushed by him without a glance, and with reason. Years earlier, Alexandre de Marenches, the head of French intelligence, had warned him that Hammer was a Soviet "agent of influence."
#16
12-30-2006, 10:33 PM
Re: Who Killed The Electric Car
Non-hybrid stuff can be discussed another day:
The only threat to the Toyota and Ford hybrids is a patent dispute that is currently under review. It isn't conspiracy, just an intellectual property dispute.
Bob Wilson
. . .
Let's put it this way....if tomorrow the automakers and oil firms want to make Hybrids look bad, they will. And they'll do it so quickly that our heads will spin...battery pollution, batteries causing cancer, electricution, etc etc etc....whatever they can throw at it they will and they'll win. You know better, I know better...and so do 500,000 other consumers I guess. But they'll clean em up and take em away before you can say HCH.
Let's put it this way....if tomorrow the automakers and oil firms want to make Hybrids look bad, they will. And they'll do it so quickly that our heads will spin...battery pollution, batteries causing cancer, electricution, etc etc etc....whatever they can throw at it they will and they'll win. You know better, I know better...and so do 500,000 other consumers I guess. But they'll clean em up and take em away before you can say HCH.
Bob Wilson
#17
12-31-2006, 11:06 AM
Re: Who Killed The Electric Car
I never understood why people think it's valid to point out the needs, agendas, and competitive stances of automakers but not of oil companies and policy makers.
#18
12-31-2006, 11:16 AM
Re: Who Killed The Electric Car
Clearly I was repeating lakedude's choice of words. But who are the goons you were referring to in your first post?
By the way you're not related to Armand Hammer of Occidental Petroleum fame?
Since this thread does involve conspiracies I'd like to bring up Armand Hammer's dealings with Al Gore, Junior and Senior. This is clearly not a Republican monopoly, the Democrats have oil all over themselves include Al.
http://www.theforbiddenknowledge.com...and_hammer.htm
If true, I might call those guys goons, Hammer called them toadies.
By the way you're not related to Armand Hammer of Occidental Petroleum fame?
Since this thread does involve conspiracies I'd like to bring up Armand Hammer's dealings with Al Gore, Junior and Senior. This is clearly not a Republican monopoly, the Democrats have oil all over themselves include Al.
http://www.theforbiddenknowledge.com...and_hammer.htm
If true, I might call those guys goons, Hammer called them toadies.
But it's no conspiracy...that word has been redefined by groups (whatever groups they may be...that part is irrelevant) to demonize and beat down people who think that the truth may be an alternative to the "official" story. When people start using the "conspiracy", topics like this degenerate into amusement circus acts....which essentially is what the goal of that way of thinking is supposed to do.
So I advise against using it because it's counterproductive.
Oil companies have incredible power to manipulate, cojole, and shape the way the government works. There are reasons why lobbys exist...there are reasons why millions and billions are poored into them every year to make sure they get what they want. Anyone who thinks the automakers, the adminstration(s), and oil firms don't work hand in hand has, honestly, been living on another planet.
#19
12-31-2006, 12:19 PM
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Re: Who Killed The Electric Car
Hehe...no I'm not related to Armand Hammer. If I were I wouldn't be sitting here typing away caring for such issues.
But it's no conspiracy...that word has been redefined by groups (whatever groups they may be...that part is irrelevant) to demonize and beat down people who think that the truth may be an alternative to the "official" story. When people start using the "conspiracy", topics like this degenerate into amusement circus acts....which essentially is what the goal of that way of thinking is supposed to do.
So I advise against using it because it's counterproductive.
Oil companies have incredible power to manipulate, cojole, and shape the way the government works. There are reasons why lobbys exist...there are reasons why millions and billions are poored into them every year to make sure they get what they want. Anyone who thinks the automakers, the adminstration(s), and oil firms don't work hand in hand has, honestly, been living on another planet.
But it's no conspiracy...that word has been redefined by groups (whatever groups they may be...that part is irrelevant) to demonize and beat down people who think that the truth may be an alternative to the "official" story. When people start using the "conspiracy", topics like this degenerate into amusement circus acts....which essentially is what the goal of that way of thinking is supposed to do.
So I advise against using it because it's counterproductive.
Oil companies have incredible power to manipulate, cojole, and shape the way the government works. There are reasons why lobbys exist...there are reasons why millions and billions are poored into them every year to make sure they get what they want. Anyone who thinks the automakers, the adminstration(s), and oil firms don't work hand in hand has, honestly, been living on another planet.
I think we agree that automakers, administrations, and oil firm work hand in hand. Where we differ is I see the ultimate problem falling on our elected officials if indeed auto and oil get unfair advantage resulting from buying politicians.
On the other hand I don't see opening ANWR or gulf coast to exploration as quid pro quo to oil companies, making them off limits is the problem. Alaska's government should decide whether ANWR is off limits, and justify it to it's citizens, or be voted out.
Government attempts at mandating CAFE standards is one example of a failed policy. I don't blame manufacturers for huge SUVs, I blame simple minded politicians that didn't understand how the market would adjust to take advantage of the coercive tactic. GM never wanted to build more trucks and SUV, but the law made it make sense, and people grew to love them. GM just wants to make a profit, however shortsighted that may be, time will tell. I hope government is able to let GM fail if that how the market turns out, the free market doesn't work if failures can't fail.
Government can't force 10% of Californians to buy the EV1 or equivalent, especially when at the time gas was less than a buck. The market can't get 10% hybrid at $3. I'd rather the government not try to force that to happen.
#20
01-16-2007, 02:21 PM
Re: Who Killed The Electric Car
Wow, I am glad I found this thread. I saw the movie recently, although I was aware of the issue for some time. I really have a bad bad feeling toward GM for what they did. I was especially intrigued by the arguement that Hybrids and Fuel Cells were partially to blame for killing the electric car. I firmly believe that the Auto and Oil industries colluded with the powers that run our world to kill this idea and keep us oil junkies hooked up to our drug so we stay addicted. I would love to see all fossil fuels banned.
