They already announced there will be a hybrid version by no later with 2008. They said it will score higher FE than the HCH and lower than the Insight. Figure probably 55mpg or so.

 

I wrote to Honda today also. I figured that the written word carries more weight than wishful thinking. Here's what I wrote:



Greetings,

My 2003 Civic Hybrid is almost to 100,000 miles and I have enjoyed nearly every mile so far. My average gas mileage is 44 MPG and the car has plenty of power. It has been extremely reliable except for the catalytic converter (which was replaced twice for free). I plan on buying another Honda hybrid someday. I am about 90% satisfied. I give the car an A-.

What could make the Civic Hybrid better? A push-button Forced Autostop would be handy for stop-and-go traffic so that the car's engine doesn't run unneccessarily. A 110v power outlet for laptops and other low-load devices would be a welcome addition. A 2.5mm input jack for MP3 players would be nice.

I had a few more ideas that don't relate exactly to the Civic Hybrid, but do relate to your hybrid program in general.


Honda Fit Hybrid:
You should make this car. The propulsion system of the Insight is a known quantity and could easily be adapted to the Fit. I personally would buy such a car. In fact, if the Fit Hybrid had been available in 2003, I would have purchased that car (I almost bought the Insight, but I needed four seats). Since the Fit is a $13k-$15k car, a hybrid fit could be a sub-$20k proposition. It would be great for customers that care about the environment but are on a tight budget.

Like the Insight, the Fit Hybrid should be made available with a 5-speed manual transmission.

Honda Accord Hybrid:
The reason why this car doesn't sell is that the v6 engine is so powerful that the IMA almost never engages. That's also why the fuel economy improvement is so anemic. If you mated the IMA to an i4 engine, the IMA would get more use and the fuel economy would increase much more. The Accord could then compete more effectively with the Toyota Camry Hybrid.


Hybrid Traps:
Don't fall into the trap of hybridizing gargantuan SUVs. Adding $3,000 of IMA hardware to a SUV that gets 13 MPG is a waste of the technology. Leave that madness to GM.

With thanks,
Chris Todd

 

So for arguement sake, if a non-hybrid car gets equal or near equal mpg and is just as clean, you wouldn't go for that?

 

I'd consider it. That's why I don't pay much heed to the HSD/IMA war. I think the end results are what's important.

 

Feature for feature, I'd consider it. But if I have to sacrifice these, no:

• must be automatic (so wife can drive it)
• must be middle-height (so wife can get in and out without pain)
• electric everything (for my wife)
• no smaller than what we drive today (Echo / Prius I)
• match City and Highway performance to Prius I
• follow safety and emissions regulations

A non-hybrid vehicle with these specifications could be built but it would be expensive. For a conceptual design:

1. ceramic parts, compound-turbo, supercharged diesel, throttle-by-wire
2. electronic controlled transmission, shift-by-wire
3. carbon and kevlar fiber body, lights-cameras-by-wire
4. boundry layer and aerodynamic clean-up with flush everything
5. drive-by-wire
6. fewer than 4 wheels

It would cost several times higher than the price of current hybrids to achieve the same level of performance. Would you still buy it because it was not a hybrid?

The hybrid car companies are on a steep learning curve and generational changes will advance pretty quickly before they start to taper off. This means they will learn economies of scale and manufacturing that will allow these mechanically simpler hybrids to give even better price-performance value than the current non-hybrids.

Bob Wilson

 

Bob,
I agree that there isn't a non hybid in the USA ,or anywhere on earth yet, that can match the Prius for city mpg, hy mpg, interior volume, ease of entry/
exit, acceleration.
However, I don't think it would require as much high end exotica as you think it would-(Carbon fiber,Kevlar(except tires, of course),ceramic, or even a compound turbo(maybe a variable vane, but maybe not).
What hard numbers can I offer-not many,but:
1)The 30% vs 40% inherent efficiency advantage of a good ice vs good tdi. Yes, I have seen the 37% efficiency claim made for very late intake closing motors, but I haven't seen Toyota make that claim.
2) Start with a Prius body. This would solve the interior volume, getting in and getting out problems(the Civic is miserable in this respect-I'm 5'5" and I have to duck my head a lot to get in or out). The Prius body would also help hy, and city mpg.
3)Add engine shutdown, and a bigger battery capable of running an electric A/C compressor. I grant you 25 lbs extra weight for the Battery pack.My AC would need to be about 3000 BTUs, and it would use about 250 watts/hr if it had a 12 EER.Regular100 amp car alternators produce 1200 watts/hr. I think 25 extra lbs of battery is a generous allowance-25% of a Prius BP.
4)I want to use an all aluminum TDI for my power source.It would have to be decent displacement(maybe 2.5-2.8 LT) to get the 140 hp it would need to match the 0-60 accel of the Prius. Now, I need some help from you:, I want you to grant me equal total weights for the two vehicles.My 25 of extra battery, and fairly large TDI shouldn't weight more than your little ICE+ 2 extra electric motors.
5)I want Volkswagen's 6 speed auto manual for my trans, but make it 7 speed.Nice solid lockup, and maybe not as prone to teething problems as the true CVTs.
Now you will ask,"Why doesn't the Jetta match the Prius in city mpg, or in acceleration?" It could match it in interior room if it was a hatchback.
I would answer,"It is too heavy-350 lbs heavier-, it doesn't have engine shutdown, and the motor is too small-low powered- it is about 100 hp,I think."
My problem is that there isn't a good enough, light enough 4 cyl 140 hp TDI out there yet.You need about 140 "regular TDI HP" to match the 110 electric-ice hp-you also needs lots of gears to keep it in the power band, and to allow low rpm 70 mph cruising, but to also have 0-60 in the mid 10's.
The problem is we need a Mercedes TDI downsized, and down priced for a $26000 car. We might need some help with exhaust regs also.
A state of the art all alloy TDI with engine shutdown and a "good transmission" should be able to match a Prius, if it was dropped in a Prius body. Getting the acceleration while getting the city mpg is the toughest challenge. It would be at least as"expensive as a Prius-maybe more depending on how expensive my "state of the art"TDI is. The Prius is a winner, no question. Thanks,Charlie
PS I'm not sure why Diesels usually don't accelerate as well as spark motors with similar HP and well matched gearing.. Maybe they have heavier flywheels, maybe the long stroke is a problem, maybe the high compression actually inhibits revving, the heavier pistons don't help?? I have heard that the Mercedes TDI will run with their gasoline motors??

 

It is the proposed experiment. The key is making sure we're talking apples-to-apples. As for manual transmission hybrids and non-hybrids, match the features and do the test.

Weight has its own penalty so I wouldn't presume to specify it. IMHO, it is a question of dealing with the loss of energy braking. The heavier the vehicle, the greater the energy loss, especially if it just heats brake pads.

It may also be possible to fit the Honda IMA into a higher profile vehicle and achieve simular performance. With some of the lean-burn technology it should be a nice ride too. A little stronger motor in the IMA would help too on the low end but hey, I'm open to suggestions.

Bob Wilson

 

Bob, the Prius is a little piece of art, all right. I just spent some time driving it at 55, 60, 65 mph. I assumed the RPMS of the little motor(with the electric motors off) would be about 2500 rpms at 60 mph.My 1.8 liter 2001 Prizm(corolla) turns 2850 rpms at 60 in top gear. I was wrong.At 61mph the ICE turns 1400-1600 RPMS!.At 65 mph it does 1500-1800 rpms. It is hard to be precise ,because the scanguage only changes reading about every 3 seconds, and the Energy screen shows the electric motor going on and off maybe every 5 seconds or so. The highest RPMS were going uphill -accelerating- from 40-65 mph. I saw about 3400 RPMS then.
At 60 mph the RPMS would increase from about 1400 to 1700-1800 when the electric motor would come on. Averaging just 1800 RPMs for 60 mph is 1000 RPMS less than most cars this size(2800-2900 lbs)-like Corollas and Civics. Considering that it is smaller than those motors, it is a good trick.
It would be interesting to know what the exhaust temp is for the Prius. I'm wondering just how efficient it is? Maybe it does approach 37% efficiency.?If it actually does, then a 40% diesel could never beat it-not with the regen braking.The low RPMS and high compression(maybe the exhaust valve stays shut longer than usual also) it might extract a lot more energy,and give up a lot less to friction.
With a "normal" car and transmission, you just couldn't safely run it down to 1400 RPMS at 60 mph.The load would be too close to a lugging load-the crank would speed up,slow down -and put too much load on the bearings. With the ability to add electric power/torque as the load requires, you should be able to more closely approach lugging.It could act like a very heavy-or variable weight-flywheel and allow low RPMS.
Clever little car. Charlie

 

Since the pivot force is from MG1, the torque remains balanced and the drive-by-wire handles keeping everything balanced.

The Atkinson cycle means the compression stroke is only 8:1 but the power stroke is 13:1. This 'derates' the ICE but along with an offset crankshaft, greatly reduces compression power and power stroke friction losses.

That is one of the subtle effects of 'drive-by-wire' allowing faster control laws to compensate for mechanical inertia. But it also makes understanding the Prius more than a little challenging to master.

Bob Wilson

 

Bob, yes the Prius requires some thought;I puzzled over how this small motor could make more power at lower RPMs, than well designed bigger motors,after sending some of the power thru a generator which subtracted maybe 10% from whatever power was sent thru it. I had to watch out for perpetual motion thinking. I finally figured that the bigger motors can make as much power at as low an RPM, but they just can't run smoothly while doing it-they lug!Since they are all drive by wire now, they aren't allowed "good cyl filling" at low RPMS because of the lugging. The Prius however probably can get away with higher levels of CYL filling for a couple of reasons
1)As you say, it is only pushing-compressing 8/1, not the usual 10/1, but it is expanding 13/1, not the usual 10/1 .This is why I would love to see some exhaust temps(I expect they are lower than average( testing before the cat con).
2)I suspect that the nice smooth non pulsatile nature of the electric motor power prevents the slowing down of the crank that you would normally get at low RPMS, high loads.
The Prius can actually waste some energy converting it to electrical energy(what did you can it- Ohmic heating?), and yet still come out ahead because of the greatly reduced RPMS which mean much lower friction losses.
I was really stunned to see 1400-1600 RPMS at 60 mph-I expected closer to 3000 rpms..
I have closely watched all my vehicles RPMS at 60 mph.It is a decent indicator of hy mpg(within limits, of course). My Titan 5.6 LT would get 20.5 mpg hy vs my 4.7 LT Tundra which got 18 mpg. The difference(other than the Titan being 400 lbs heavier with ~5% more frontal area) was 1550 RPMS at 60 mpg vs 1950 RPMS at 60 mph.
I'm pretty sure that at "reasonable hy speeds" the extremely tall gearing allowed by the electric motor "boost" is why the HH beats the regular Highlander(which has a lock up auto trans) in CRs hy test (28 mpg vs 25 mpg). I remember the DC folks claiming it was a "disadvantage at high speeds" because of the power lost in going Mech>elect>mech.At USA HY speeds, it just isn't so.
I have run on. The more I think about it, the more impressed I am. Luck,Charlie