GM Greens Up Saturn Image with "Mild Hybrids"
#11
08-30-2005, 04:17 PM
Re: GM Greens Up Saturn Image with "Mild Hybrids"
Hi All:
___I see quite a bit of hybrid “elitism” being posted to date …
___If the BAS in the VUE was designed properly, it could easily achieve > FE and still have HP far in excess of the Escape, RXh, and HH. You only need to look below to see what is possible in that regard. Think about it. $2,000 or less worth of HW to achieve > FE then any other SUV if it were designed properly. One should not care if a machine is called a hybrid, full hybrid, partial hybrid, or even an upside down hybrid! As long as it achieves the FE of the hybrid or better that we are all used to seeing and writing about, who cares what it is called.
___Remember when BMW, MB, possibly Lexus, and Acura were charging upwards of $2,000 for an optical based ABS in their top of the line models a decade or two ago? I believe GM was one of the first to offer an all hydraulic based ABS system for far less money then the optical ones being offered by the elites (Caddy included) and it worked very well IIRC.
___With that, GM will probably not design the Saturn VUE w/ BAS properly to achieve Escape HEV, RXh, and HH like FE to the detriment of us all
It is a start however.
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
___Waynegerdes@earthlink.net
___I see quite a bit of hybrid “elitism” being posted to date …
___If the BAS in the VUE was designed properly, it could easily achieve > FE and still have HP far in excess of the Escape, RXh, and HH. You only need to look below to see what is possible in that regard. Think about it. $2,000 or less worth of HW to achieve > FE then any other SUV if it were designed properly. One should not care if a machine is called a hybrid, full hybrid, partial hybrid, or even an upside down hybrid! As long as it achieves the FE of the hybrid or better that we are all used to seeing and writing about, who cares what it is called.
___Remember when BMW, MB, possibly Lexus, and Acura were charging upwards of $2,000 for an optical based ABS in their top of the line models a decade or two ago? I believe GM was one of the first to offer an all hydraulic based ABS system for far less money then the optical ones being offered by the elites (Caddy included) and it worked very well IIRC.
___With that, GM will probably not design the Saturn VUE w/ BAS properly to achieve Escape HEV, RXh, and HH like FE to the detriment of us all
It is a start however.___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
___Waynegerdes@earthlink.net
#12
08-30-2005, 04:46 PM
Pretty Darn Active Enthusiast
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Jacksonville, FL
Posts: 335
Re: GM Greens Up Saturn Image with "Mild Hybrids"
I won't deny a bit of hybrid elitism on my part, though I hadn't yet posted to this thread so it hasn't leaked here. 
What I will say is that it's a terrible shame in my opinion for a company (leave it to an American manufacturer) to label something a hybrid when it clearly won't live up to numbers the existent hybrids have worked so hard towards for several years. We're all aware of how fragile the reputation of hybrid technology is right now in its relative infancy. I can see the VUE being another drop on the disappointment list for drivers and public alike. This on the heels of Toyota and Honda getting squashed in the Senate for actually trying to clean up this country and save some resources.
What I will say is that it's a terrible shame in my opinion for a company (leave it to an American manufacturer) to label something a hybrid when it clearly won't live up to numbers the existent hybrids have worked so hard towards for several years. We're all aware of how fragile the reputation of hybrid technology is right now in its relative infancy. I can see the VUE being another drop on the disappointment list for drivers and public alike. This on the heels of Toyota and Honda getting squashed in the Senate for actually trying to clean up this country and save some resources.
Last edited by helterskelter683; 08-30-2005 at 04:47 PM. Reason: diction
#14
08-30-2005, 08:07 PM
Re: GM Greens Up Saturn Image with "Mild Hybrids"
Hi EricGo:
___I am not thinking about forcing, just design a very robust Neutral based - Autostop into the darn thing with any accelerator pedal release of > 2 seconds no matter the speed. Regen only when the brakes are touched or when the 42 V NiMH pack is less then 50% SoC. 35 + mpg city and highway per the EPA test cycle instantly using Acura’s very powerful 3.5 L, MDX ICE.
___P&G/FAS/D-FAS whatever would take no end user input whatsoever!
___As an edit … Simple and very inexpensive without much in the way of Patent breaking HW needed more then likely. Can you imagine what a Corolla or Civic with a properly designed BAS would do in the EPA test cycles? 60 + mpg per the FTP75 would be a no brainer!
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
___Waynegerdes@earthlink.net
___I am not thinking about forcing, just design a very robust Neutral based - Autostop into the darn thing with any accelerator pedal release of > 2 seconds no matter the speed. Regen only when the brakes are touched or when the 42 V NiMH pack is less then 50% SoC. 35 + mpg city and highway per the EPA test cycle instantly using Acura’s very powerful 3.5 L, MDX ICE.
___P&G/FAS/D-FAS whatever would take no end user input whatsoever!
___As an edit … Simple and very inexpensive without much in the way of Patent breaking HW needed more then likely. Can you imagine what a Corolla or Civic with a properly designed BAS would do in the EPA test cycles? 60 + mpg per the FTP75 would be a no brainer!
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
___Waynegerdes@earthlink.net
Last edited by xcel; 08-30-2005 at 08:11 PM.
#15
08-31-2005, 09:30 AM
Re: GM Greens Up Saturn Image with "Mild Hybrids"
I know what you mean, Wayne. I said 'forced' because in such a car, low engine output driving would take a serious MPG hit, and AFAIK, only determined P&G could circumvent it.
Do you agree ?
Do you agree ?
#16
08-31-2005, 03:26 PM
Re: GM Greens Up Saturn Image with "Mild Hybrids"
Hi EricGo:
___Low engine output/load would be a perfect place to run that ICE if they are going to use the Honda/Acura 3.5 L. You really have to throw out all the peak efficiency at a given RPM non-sense that the test labs keep posting. As a system, using the ICE in that low RPM range where efficiency is supposedly 20 to 30% less then at peak allows higher FE overall. This is how I drive and I have yet to see an individual knock out better numbers when running at 2,200 + RPM (highest thermal efficiencies) in a similar automobile to date. The MDX’s numbers in particular speaks for itself in that regard.
___P&G is really a repetitive technique between a given speed range although it can be extended into most any range as long as you are below 41 mph because of the ICE/MGSet synch and spin up. After that Speed, you are losing overall FE fast due to the kW loading. AS happens at 19 and below in the Insight/HCH. GM or whoever needs to design the/a BAS to AS from any speed and the FE numbers would be truly excellent. This would not be a P&G mimic but an AS from any speed is all.
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
___Waynegerdes@earthlink.net
___Low engine output/load would be a perfect place to run that ICE if they are going to use the Honda/Acura 3.5 L. You really have to throw out all the peak efficiency at a given RPM non-sense that the test labs keep posting. As a system, using the ICE in that low RPM range where efficiency is supposedly 20 to 30% less then at peak allows higher FE overall. This is how I drive and I have yet to see an individual knock out better numbers when running at 2,200 + RPM (highest thermal efficiencies) in a similar automobile to date. The MDX’s numbers in particular speaks for itself in that regard.
___P&G is really a repetitive technique between a given speed range although it can be extended into most any range as long as you are below 41 mph because of the ICE/MGSet synch and spin up. After that Speed, you are losing overall FE fast due to the kW loading. AS happens at 19 and below in the Insight/HCH. GM or whoever needs to design the/a BAS to AS from any speed and the FE numbers would be truly excellent. This would not be a P&G mimic but an AS from any speed is all.
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
___Waynegerdes@earthlink.net
#17
09-02-2005, 05:54 PM
Re: GM Greens Up Saturn Image with "Mild Hybrids"
Originally Posted by xcel
Hi All:
......If the BAS in the VUE was designed properly, it could easily achieve > FE and still have HP far in excess of the Escape, RXh, and HH. You only need to look below to see what is possible in that regard. Think about it. $2,000 or less worth of HW to achieve > FE then any other SUV if it were designed properly. One should not care if a machine is called a hybrid, full hybrid, partial hybrid, or even an upside down hybrid! As long as it achieves the FE of the hybrid or better that we are all used to seeing and writing about, who cares what it is called.......
......If the BAS in the VUE was designed properly, it could easily achieve > FE and still have HP far in excess of the Escape, RXh, and HH. You only need to look below to see what is possible in that regard. Think about it. $2,000 or less worth of HW to achieve > FE then any other SUV if it were designed properly. One should not care if a machine is called a hybrid, full hybrid, partial hybrid, or even an upside down hybrid! As long as it achieves the FE of the hybrid or better that we are all used to seeing and writing about, who cares what it is called.......
Originally Posted by xcel
___With that, GM will probably not design the Saturn VUE w/ BAS properly to achieve Escape HEV, RXh, and HH like FE to the detriment of us all ...
Just kidding xcel !!
Seriously, if the Saturn VUE Green Line can achieve 18 - 20% f/e improvement for significantly less price than the other systems, isn't that a good thing?
Peace,
Martin
#18
09-02-2005, 06:14 PM
Re: GM Greens Up Saturn Image with "Mild Hybrids"
Originally Posted by AshenGrey
I don't think GM has a clue. In fact, Ford is the only one of the "Big 3" that has any clue at all.
Keep in mind, DCX also had the opportunity to buy into that same system or develop their own. They chose instead to invest in and co-develop a system based on GM's diesel bus system Wonder why that is? Couldn't possibly be that they believe GM HAS a clue, could it?
Originally Posted by AshenGrey
Gee... Their bloated SUVs sit on the dealer lots for 90+ days, and they have to offer employee pricing and $4k-$6k discounts to bribe people to buy them. Meanwhile, the Prius has had a 2-6 month waiting list for two years straight, with NO DISCOUNTS.
Originally Posted by AshenGrey
Their "hybrid" solution only costs about $800 per vehicle
Originally Posted by AshenGrey
to implement and adds about 2-3 MPG. Whoop-de-do. Color me unimpressed.
Originally Posted by AshenGrey
Personally, I think a car should get at least 20% of its propulsion from batteries in order to qualify as a hybrid. The GM solution doesn't push the vehicle at all!
Peace,
Martin
#19
09-02-2005, 06:44 PM
Re: GM Greens Up Saturn Image with "Mild Hybrids"
Hi Martin:
___Sorry I missed this one but I did catch your “other” introduction post …
___I will be a bit nicer in this one, I promise
___18 - 20% isn’t worth beans (I was being really kind just saying that)! You need at least 50% and then you are at least playing ball in the big leagues. The Japanese already have an 18 - 20% advantage with their ICE designs over the domestics let alone hybridization on top of that. Think bigger. Design for much higher. Knock the **** ball out of the ball park! Do it for your family, your city, your state, and even for your country!
___With the above, you would have thought I would have broken out in song singing the National Anthem or something … I almost did
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
___Waynegerdes@earthlink.net
___Sorry I missed this one but I did catch your “other” introduction post …
___I will be a bit nicer in this one, I promise
___18 - 20% isn’t worth beans (I was being really kind just saying that)! You need at least 50% and then you are at least playing ball in the big leagues. The Japanese already have an 18 - 20% advantage with their ICE designs over the domestics let alone hybridization on top of that. Think bigger. Design for much higher. Knock the **** ball out of the ball park! Do it for your family, your city, your state, and even for your country!
___With the above, you would have thought I would have broken out in song singing the National Anthem or something … I almost did
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
___Waynegerdes@earthlink.net
#20
09-02-2005, 07:01 PM
Re: GM Greens Up Saturn Image with "Mild Hybrids"
Originally Posted by xcel
...___18 - 20% isn’t worth beans (I was being really kind just saying that)! You need at least 50% and then you are at least playing ball in the big leagues. The Japanese already have an 18 - 20% advantage with their ICE designs over the domestics let alone hybridization on top of that. ....
___Wayne R. Gerdes
___Waynegerdes@earthlink.net
___Wayne R. Gerdes
___Waynegerdes@earthlink.net
I will not claim 50% f/e improvement on any of the things I've seen, but they will be on par with and in some cases better than THS wrt % improvement over base vehicle.
Keep in mind that for whatever reasons, when the GM 1st generation strong hybrid system debuts, it will be competing with the 3rd or 4th generation of THS and in my opinion it'll stand toe to toe. It will continue to improve beyond that, as will the Toyota system. The consumer will have real choices.
Peace,
James
