Electric Vehicle Forums

Electric Vehicle Forums (/forums/)
-   Off Topic (https://electricvehicleforums.com/forums/off-topic-9/)
-   -   Are we a bunch of Al Gore hypocrits? (https://electricvehicleforums.com/forums/off-topic-9/we-bunch-al-gore-hypocrits-12748/)

SrfCity 03-19-2007 05:15 PM

Are we a bunch of Al Gore hypocrits?
 
Interesting read as to why a Prius(probably the same goes for the Honda) requires double the energy to produce vs a Hummer. So much for helping the environment but we tried ;)

Here's the story:

Snagged from some news print:

The Toyota Prius has become the flagship car for those in our society so environmentally conscious that they are willing to spend a premium to show the world how much they care. Unfortunately for them, their ultimate ‘green car’ is the source of some of the worst pollution in North America; it takes more combined energy per Prius to produce than a Hummer.


Before we delve into the seedy underworld of hybrids, you must first understand how a hybrid works. For this, we will use the most popular hybrid on the market, the Toyota Prius.


The Prius is powered by not one, but two engines: a standard 76 horsepower, 1.5-liter gas engine found in most cars today and a battery- powered engine that deals out 67 horsepower and a whooping 295ft/lbs of torque, below 2000 revolutions per minute. Essentially, the Toyota Synergy Drive system, as it is so called, propels the car from a dead stop to up to 30mph. This is where the largest percent of gas is consumed. As any physics major can tell you, it takes more energy to get an object moving than to keep it moving. The battery is recharged through the braking system, as well as when the gasoline engine takes over anywhere north of 30mph. It seems like a great energy efficient and environmentally sound car, right?


You would be right if you went by the old government EPA estimates, which netted the Prius an incredible 60 miles per gallon in the city and 51 miles per gallon on the highway. Unfortunately for Toyota, the government realized how unrealistic their EPA tests were, which consisted of highway speeds limited to 55mph and acceleration of only 3.3 mph per second. The new tests which affect all 2008 models give a much more realistic rating with highway speeds of 80mph and acceleration of 8mph per second. This has dropped the Prius’s EPA down by 25 percent to an average of 45mpg. This now puts the Toyota within spitting distance of cars like the Chevy Aveo, which costs less then half what the Prius costs.


However, if that was the only issue with the Prius, I wouldn’t be writing this article. It gets much worse.


Building a Toyota Prius causes more environmental damage than a Hummer that is on the road for three times longer than a Prius. As already noted, the Prius is partly driven by a battery which contains nickel. The nickel is mined and smelted at a plant in Sudbury, Ontario. This plant has caused so much environmental damage to the surrounding environment that NASA has used the ‘dead zone’ around the plant to test moon rovers. The area around the plant is devoid of any life for miles.


The plant is the source of all the nickel found in a Prius’ battery and Toyota purchases 1,000 tons annually. Dubbed the Superstack, the plague-factory has spread sulfur dioxide across northern Ontario, becoming every environmentalist’s nightmare.


“The acid rain around Sudbury was so bad it destroyed all the plants and the soil slid down off the hillside,” said Canadian Greenpeace energy-coordinator David Martin during an interview with Mail, a British-based newspaper.


All of this would be bad enough in and of itself; however, the journey to make a hybrid doesn’t end there. The nickel produced by this disastrous plant is shipped via massive container ship to the largest nickel refinery in Europe. From there, the nickel hops over to China to produce ‘nickel foam.’ From there, it goes to Japan. Finally, the completed batteries are shipped to the United States, finalizing the around-the-world trip required to produce a single Prius battery. Are these not sounding less and less like environmentally sound cars and more like a farce?


Wait, I haven’t even got to the best part yet.


When you pool together all the combined energy it takes to drive and build a Toyota Prius, the flagship car of energy fanatics, it takes almost 50 percent more energy than a Hummer - the Prius’s arch nemesis.


Through a study by CNW Marketing called “Dust to Dust,” the total combined energy is taken from all the electrical, fuel, transportation, materials (metal, plastic, etc) and hundreds of other factors over the expected lifetime of a vehicle. The Prius costs an average of $3.25 per mile driven over a lifetime of 100,000 miles - the expected lifespan of the Hybrid.


The Hummer, on the other hand, costs a more fiscal $1.95 per mile to put on the road over an expected lifetime of 300,000 miles. That means the Hummer will last three times longer than a Prius and use less combined energy doing it.


So, if you are really an environmentalist - ditch the Prius. Instead, buy one of the most economical cars available - a Toyota Scion xB. The Scion only costs a paltry $0.48 per mile to put on the road. If you are still obsessed over gas mileage - buy a Chevy Aveo and fix that lead foot.


One last fun fact for you: it takes five years to offset the premium price of a Prius. Meaning, you have to wait 60 months to save any money over a non-hybrid car because of lower gas expenses.
http://ferrarichat.com/forum/images/buttons/quote.gif

msantos 03-19-2007 05:24 PM

Re: Are we a bunch of Al Gore hypocrits?
 
The mere reference to CNW marketing in this post is enough to render it forgettable by anyone minimally intelligent.
Sadly, the CNW folks (including Mr. Spinella) continue to be a model of scientific embarrassment and ridicule.

This type of rethoric has been refuted dozens of times on this site, other sites, press releases and other embarrassing dismissals (at both governmental and academic levels).

Always an interesting read though.


Cheers;

MSantos

Delta Flyer 03-19-2007 06:13 PM

Re: Are we a bunch of Al Gore hypocrits?
 
Please seach at GH for "Dust to Dust" and "Sudbury"

It will be very apparent both articles are bogus.

the funk 03-20-2007 07:25 AM

Re: Are we a bunch of Al Gore hypocrits?
 
no ;)

noflash 03-20-2007 08:02 AM

Re: Are we a bunch of Al Gore hypocrits?
 
Welcome to last YEAR! ;)

noflash 03-20-2007 08:04 AM

Re: Are we a bunch of Al Gore hypocrits?
 
BTW, Al is no hypocrite. He's personally responsible for this recent popular green wave and has done more for the environment than anyone in this decade.

lars-ss 03-20-2007 09:56 AM

Re: Are we a bunch of Al Gore hypocrits?
 
Al Gore does not walk the walk which he talks. See recent stories on his huge electricity bills in his mansion for proof of that.

He might and probably does truly CARE about the environment. But telling people the sky if falling while he is wasting huge kilowatts of energy at his mansion is ample fuel for the criticism he deserves.

the funk 03-20-2007 09:59 AM

Re: Are we a bunch of Al Gore hypocrits?
 
i thought gore lived in a handmade hemp tent out in the woods of tennessee somewhere lol

noflash 03-20-2007 11:03 AM

Re: Are we a bunch of Al Gore hypocrits?
 

Originally Posted by lars-ss (Post 117027)
Al Gore does not walk the walk which he talks. See recent stories on his huge electricity bills in his mansion for proof of that.

He might and probably does truly CARE about the environment. But telling people the sky if falling while he is wasting huge kilowatts of energy at his mansion is ample fuel for the criticism he deserves.

Look further than the Republican blogger headlines and you see that all of his energy use is offsetted, his house is undergoing a rennovation that includes solar panels, and that half of his "mansion" is used as office space.

Further, it's not like Al Gore is a 9-to-5'er who just lives at home. He's an ex-vp who has security details, assistants, and a ton of baggage. You can't expect him to live in a yurt.

Cut him some slack.

lars-ss 03-20-2007 11:47 AM

Re: Are we a bunch of Al Gore hypocrits?
 
No, he does have needs. But his use was SO far above the norm that is was newsworthy.

And yes I know about the solar panels. Did he just RECENTLY DISCOVER that they exist? Good for him.

But you and Al gotta understand - if you walk around PREACHING to people all the time to reduce their carbon footprint, then you have a target on your forehead if you do not do the same thing. Same with any kind of Preacher who does not walk their talk (see the numerous religious sex scandals)

:D

noflash 03-20-2007 11:55 AM

Re: Are we a bunch of Al Gore hypocrits?
 
We can all do better.

spartybrutus 03-21-2007 10:10 AM

Re: Are we a bunch of Al Gore hypocrits?
 
Wow $3.25/mile for 100K miles.... Over $300k for to produce and operate a Prius? I dont remember the Hybrids total cost of ownership TCO(including the price of the vehicle) even approaching $50k over the 5-6 years to put on that mileage. If so, either Toyota is losing a lot of $ per car or I am...;)

In any case, I bought the HCHII for selfish reasons - $$$ - lowest TCO over the 7-10 years I plan to drive it - and its a comfortable, reliable car.

BTW, had to sell my Jeep Cherokee to help buy the Hybrid. No more offroading (for now...).

Katz6768 03-21-2007 11:02 AM

Re: Are we a bunch of Al Gore hypocrits?
 

Originally Posted by lars-ss (Post 117027)
Al Gore does not walk the walk which he talks. See recent stories on his huge electricity bills in his mansion for proof of that.

He might and probably does truly CARE about the environment. But telling people the sky if falling while he is wasting huge kilowatts of energy at his mansion is ample fuel for the criticism he deserves.

Pointing out faults in a person's character might work as a defense in legal cases or help politicians get to office...
... but it doesn't quite work as an argument to refute Global Warming :confused:

lars-ss 03-21-2007 02:08 PM

Re: Are we a bunch of Al Gore hypocrits?
 

Originally Posted by Katz6768 (Post 117235)
Pointing out faults in a person's character might work as a defense in legal cases or help politicians get to office...
... but it doesn't quite work as an argument to refute Global Warming :confused:

I was not refuting Global Warming at all.

I was merely pointing out (correctly so) that AlGore just needs to put up with the criticism he is rightly due from his CO2 excesses and then move on with doing a better job of reducing his footprint.

He is the former "Temporary" President of the United States, after all....:D

Redapple 03-21-2007 07:30 PM

Re: Are we a bunch of Al Gore hypocrits?
 
This was not about al Gore, it was about the cost of a Hummer Vs a Prius, and their energy use over their respective liftimes. Stick to the subject.

As far as that subject is concerned, you cant tell me that the nickel mine is Only pulling nickel for Prius batteries, therefore that point is mute, as is the point of all the other resources recanted.

It is a proven and established fact that more pollution comes out of the tailpipe of cars than any other source of pollution, period, so a hybrid is a natural progression and a move in the right direction. Are the car manufacturers remiss because it took them soo long to get here. Absolutely. We as consumers let it happen, because we continue to buy. What is the next step, time will tell.

That article is bogus.

Bill

zimbop 03-21-2007 10:11 PM

Re: Are we a bunch of Al Gore hypocrits?
 

Originally Posted by SrfCity (Post 116889)
The Prius costs an average of $3.25 per mile driven over a lifetime of 100,000 miles - the expected lifespan of the Hybrid.

The Hummer, on the other hand, costs a more fiscal $1.95 per mile to put on the road over an expected lifetime of 300,000 miles. That means the Hummer will last three times longer than a Prius and use less combined energy doing it.
http://ferrarichat.com/forum/images/buttons/quote.gif

Here's my favorite BS. A hummer lasting 300k miles and a prius only 100k? What a crock.

Little Man Hybrid 03-21-2007 11:35 PM

Re: Are we a bunch of Al Gore hypocrits?
 
It's been said before, but Al Gore has done more than his share getting the word out, and any Republicans stirring up these stories are just trying to DISTRACT from the real problems. As always, typical Republican propaganda. Just sayin...

Katz6768 03-22-2007 07:31 AM

Re: Are we a bunch of Al Gore hypocrits?
 

Originally Posted by lars-ss (Post 117258)
I was not refuting Global Warming at all.

I was merely pointing out (correctly so) that AlGore just needs to put up with the criticism he is rightly due from his CO2 excesses and then move on with doing a better job of reducing his footprint.

He is the former "Temporary" President of the United States, after all....:D

Sorry, I thought this thread was echoing James Inhofe's criticism of Al Gore for having a "heated Tennessee mansion" during the Global Warming hearings this week:
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/htm...77_gore22.html

In my view Global Warming should not become a Democratic or Republican issue... preserving "our" environment should be above US Politics.

SrfCity 03-22-2007 08:12 AM

Re: Are we a bunch of Al Gore hypocrits?
 
Back to the hybrid and battery thing. It's my suspicion that the batteries are quite harmful to the environment when you look at overall picture(what it takes to makes the batteries etc.) and resulting damage. IMO there's some truth to the article and these cars are not as eco-friendly as marketers would have you believe. :cry:

noflash 03-22-2007 08:34 AM

Re: Are we a bunch of Al Gore hypocrits?
 
Honda and Toyota recycle all their expended hybrid batteries.

Craig'sHH 03-22-2007 05:48 PM

Re: Are we a bunch of Al Gore hypocrits?
 
Sure, Al Gore may not walk his talk, maybe that makes him a hypocrit - but it doesn't necessarily make him wrong. I'm old enough to remember many doctors who told their patients stop smoking, but who continued to smoke themselves.

owlmaster08 03-22-2007 06:48 PM

Re: Are we a bunch of Al Gore hypocrits?
 
It seems to me that Al gore is in this for himself, not the good of the country/world. He has his own movie, has been in front of congress, and has been nominated for a nobel prize, etc. The problem most people have with him is not whether he is right or not. Its the fact that he seems to me to be quite self serving. Why should someone get so much recognition and praise for talking? Maybe I am wrong, but if he truly believed what he preached to the degree he makes it sound("this is a world crisis") he would be following his own message to the extreme to set a good example. When I think of good people like Gandhi or Mother Theresa, I think of people that actually did things for the world, not just tell others to do things. This is what I see as the problem with Al Gore.

my 2 cents

bwilson4web 03-22-2007 07:02 PM

Re: Are we a bunch of Al Gore hypocrits?
 
The usual practice when losing on the facts and data is to attack the man. In this case, Al Gore. Meanwhile, the winters are warmer, the years are warmer, the sea level is rising.

Bob Wilson

owlmaster08 03-22-2007 07:34 PM

Re: Are we a bunch of Al Gore hypocrits?
 
I would really like to see more legislation that benefits those who conserve and also more money spent on "green" technology. I've bought my hybrid which I love, and try to do small things day to day like recycle, turn off unneeded lights, not let the water run, and use only one paper towl in public bathrooms (my hands can air dry the rest of the way ;) ). However, I do realize there is always more for me to do. I also look forward to owning my own home someday and installing solar panels on it and make it energy efficient. Anyways, since this is a free country, we can't force everyone to do half these things (we can't and shouldn't take away freedom), all we can really do is reward conservation, or tax wastefulness. Rather, we need people to set the example to encourage others to follow. My dad is the person who got me into hybrids. Without his influence I wouldn't own one right now. It just makes me sad that from what I see, most of our politicians (both Democrats and Republicans) aren't such leaders, but just politicians in it for themselves.

another 2 cents

owlmaster08 03-22-2007 07:39 PM

Re: Are we a bunch of Al Gore hypocrits?
 
Sorry if I am hijacking the thread.

lakedude 03-22-2007 09:33 PM

Re: Are we a bunch of Al Gore hypocrits?
 
So it this thread about batteries or Al Gore??

spud 03-23-2007 05:53 AM

Re: Are we a bunch of Al Gore hypocrits?
 

Originally Posted by Redapple (Post 117290)

<snip a bunch of snotty stuff>

As far as that subject is concerned, you cant tell me that the nickel mine is Only pulling nickel for Prius batteries, therefore that point is mute,

<snip more>

It is a proven and established fact that more pollution comes out of the tailpipe of cars than any other source of pollution, period, blah, blah, blah....


Bill


Yo:

Part one is the usual NIMBY drivel I hear from the faithful. If you use nickel you cause more of it to be mined and processed, no way around that dude. It doesn't matter if nickel is being mined and processed for another use somewhere else by someone else.

YOUR use caused an increase or sustain in production. And it doesn't matter how noble you think you and your little hybrid are, it still mined, processed for YOU. Own it, keep it, be man or woman enough to admit it. Like being a vegan and wearing birks, "well the cow was already dead". Just phony two faced feel good nonsense.

Part two is also bull. Last I checked power production was far and away the largest cause of air pollutants, transportion was WAY DOWN on the list. 5% WW, 14% US.

So really the PROVEN AND ESTABLISHED FACT is probably that driving your little hybrid might make you feel good, smug and holier than thou, but it's real effect to GW is zippo, nadda, nil. The bigger impact of your little status symbol is saving you money through better FE and reducing overseas imports of oil.

BTW Al Gore is an idiot, his followers are fools. The dude is in it for the money.

Signed Cynical,
Steve
Oregon

bwilson4web 03-23-2007 06:09 AM

Re: Are we a bunch of Al Gore hypocrits?
 

Originally Posted by spud (Post 117565)
Yo:

Part one is the usual NIMBY drivel I hear from the faithful. If you use nickel you cause more of it to be mined and processed, no way around that dude. It doesn't matter if nickel is being mined and processed for another use somewhere else by someone else.

YOUR use caused an increase or sustain in production. And it doesn't matter how noble you think you and your little hybrid are, it still mined, processed for YOU. Own it, keep it, be man or woman enough to admit it. Like being a vegan and wearing birks, "well the cow was already dead". Just phony two faced feel good nonsense. Where's the reason, the underlying principle here?

Sounds just like the old Alabama race laws. Just a smidgen of black blood was enough to make someone a slave. But as long as you consistently hold this point of view, fine by me.


Originally Posted by spud (Post 117565)
Part two is also bull. Last I checked power production was far and away the largest cause of air pollutants, transportion was WAY DOWN on the list. 5% WW, 14% US.

Auto exhaust are concentrated in urban areas where people live.


Originally Posted by spud (Post 117565)
So really the PROVEN AND ESTABLISHED FACT

Not supported by facts and data.


Originally Posted by spud (Post 117565)
. . . is probably that driving your little hybrid might make you feel good, smug and holier than thou, but it's real effect to GW is zippo, nadda, nil. The bigger impact of your little status symbol is saving you money through better FE and reducing overseas imports of oil.

Didn't someone claim that ownership of some insigificant part is ownership of the whole?


Originally Posted by spud (Post 117565)
BTW Al Gore is an idiot, his followers are fools. The dude is in it for the money.

You've confused Al Gore with the reflection in your mirror.

Bob Wilson


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 02:24 AM.


© 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands